146 – Branding Mistakes Secretly Draining Donor Trust with Benjamin Behrooz

Episode Transcription

David Pisarek: Wondering why your non-profit’s website isn’t turning visitors into donors? Benjamin Behrooz shares how strategic branding and smart digital marketing can help your organization stand out, earn trust, and reach the people who need you most. So stay tuned, it’s level up your non-profit’s online presence time.

Welcome to the Non-profit Digital Success Podcast. Hi, I’m your host David, and in this episode we’re going to be talking all things about branding and digital marketing for non-profits and associations. And I’ve got Benjamin Behrooz, who’s the CEO of Branding Los Angeles.

Before I continue, I just want to mention that our podcast does need your help. If you find this episode or any of the others insightful, helpful, interesting, please like, subscribe, share, comment. It really does help our podcast.

Benjamin is the CEO of Branding Los Angeles, where he helps businesses strengthen their brand, sharpen their visibility, and drive growth through strategic marketing and design. Ben, thank you so much for joining us today.

Benjamin Behrooz: Thank you so much for having me today.

David Pisarek: And I love the things that you’ve got up on the shelf there, despite me being in Toronto and, you know, maybe a little bit of World Series headbutting there, but you’ve got the Dodgers there. That’s awesome.

Benjamin Behrooz: We bleed Dodger blue. Definitely, LA kid, true, true and true. And just try to fill my room up with some happiness so throughout the day I can have that positive energy around me.

David Pisarek: That’s amazing. So let’s jump in. From your experience with Branding Los Angeles, what are the biggest digital marketing challenges you’ve seen non-profits and associations, maybe community organizations, face? And why do you think so many struggle to keep up?

Benjamin Behrooz: I think it’s multi-legged. At our firm, we work with people at different stages. You know, starting a non-profit is never easy. It’s not something you can do right away. Sometimes you have to work with another entity to be able to help you as you’re progressing.

So I think it’s one of two things. No two non-profits are the same, so everyone’s a little bit different because of who you support and what you do. I think the reality that I’m seeing the most consistently is: the need for a company to have to rebrand itself, and that even happens within non-profits. For me, that’s not a happy thing. You want to be able to create something that’s comfortable, and you don’t take it off. It’s like that winter coat that you just never want to get rid of because you’re so comfortable with it.

And a non-profit organization that’s filling those gaps for you responsibility-wise, you want them to be consistent. You don’t want to have a new logo coming out. You’re like, whoa, what is that? Like, who are they creating that for? What non-profit is that? So for me, I think it’s creating an ethos with your non-profit that the non-profit is created around, but also having a brand statement that actually comes to life.

So creating elements that keep your ethos true. I don’t believe that a brand needs to be recreated every few years. I think there is enhancement throughout as different colours are going to be embraced. I know this transition to having unique and different fonts has kind of gone away, where people just want it to be very easy to read, and they want to know what it is. And that’s what gets picked up because it’s not artwork; they want it to be used.

So just figuring out how you’re presenting yourself, have it be as consistent as possible.

And I think the bigger challenge is understanding that your brand is a skyscraper, and it starts with a one-story building, and you have to build up. So that foundation that you build at the bottom has to be so strong that throughout the years it needs to be interpreted based on what’s going on, similar to the Constitution. So for us, creating that brand strategy in the beginning that falls in line with what the ethos of the non-profit is, who they’re actually looking to help and who they’re speaking to— because we know at different times as you run a business or a non-profit, your audience might change, the needs of your audience might change, and for non-profits, depending on where you are, you have 2 buckets to fill.

One bucket is the actual arm that’s helping people. The other arm is to be able to fill the bucket with funds to be able to keep it moving forward. So there is that forward-facing component, there’s that community component, and I think your ethos and your brand guide and everything that’s there needs to inspire that.

And I think there need to be action-oriented words when you think about your brand. Every brand that we have, something is happening, and it’s because there’s motion; there are things happening; there is a trigger to want to embrace. So we’re actively really trying to have people share their dreams with us. And we say that, and I mean that. I don’t think anything is impossible. I think if someone’s realistic, you are able to get them to where they need to be. And it’s with having a strategic plan, having a way to be able to research, implement, edit, execute, execute, and execute.

David Pisarek: Yeah, and I love a whole bunch of things that you mentioned there. Right at the end, you started talking about strategy and having the strategic plan.

A lot of organizations, they started with a really great mission, right? They want to help; they want to do this thing because they saw a problem or they had a problem, and they’re creating this circle of people who want to be involved in trying to bring people in to help, and money, and all that kind of stuff. But over time, they tend to veer because circumstances change, the environment changes, the economy changes- all that impact that happens, whether it’s in our control or not. Like, we’re not going to get political here, right? But, you know, things do happen.

I don’t like using the word pivot, but, you know, really understanding, ‘Okay, you know what, we do need to shift a little bit because people don’t need this thing anymore. They now need this a little bit.’ So instead of backpacks, maybe they need tablets because all their books are electronic. Whatever it happens to be for students, right? And understanding, ‘Okay, the mission is still there. You can still do the thing even if times change, technology changes, things change.’

Having the strategy and the direction and the drive, the motivation, to still help is going to bring people in as donors, bring people in as volunteers, bring staff in, and get you able to do the thing that you really want to do. But ultimately, it comes down to the strategy.

Benjamin Behrooz: A big part of, as we do this, really has to do with what is the main problem we’re solving and who are those people that we’re trying to solve that problem for. And, I think, no matter what you do and you run it through the strainer, as long as those things are identified, it’s okay to keep moving forward, but having that ethos of putting it through the strainer, which is the brand guide, which is those action statements— are we fulfilling who we’re supposed to help?

David Pisarek: And I’m glad you mentioned brand guide. So when people think brand, right, they typically think the logo, the watermark, the tagline, the fonts, the colours. What a lot of people kind of forget about, unless you’re a big enough organization, is that it’s also the messaging. The tone, the style of the writing. There’s this whole other part of the messaging.

So how do you help, I guess, your clients figure out how that all kind of fits? Or, you know what, maybe they veered off course a little bit. Let’s kind of correct that and bring it back to the main message.

Benjamin Behrooz: So I think the best way to kind of handle this is social listening. Social listening is probably one of the more powerful things where you can very easily go in on social platforms using different tools. So you’re able to see where the problems are, where the conversations are being had, and address them.

Very similar to being able to understand what people are saying on the street; common day now is what are they saying on Twitter, what are they saying on Reddit, what are they saying in reviews? Like, where is there a hole that you’re able to fill? So, I think, understanding what your consumer base is doing, what things are affecting them.

For us, we work with a lot of non-profits that support undocumented immigrants, and there’s different things that come in place, and it might even be a medical center to help people. And there’s very big shifts happening now that specifically in Los Angeles, even for medical care, for kids, people are scared to go to the hospital because they feel they’re going to get thrown in jail. So, as a brand is there to help, a brand has to be sharing that this is a safe place.

So it’s really about understanding what’s happening. Social listening really becomes a part of the ethos. And I think that as we do a brand guide, as there’s items in there, I think that understanding who your consumer is, where they live, what they do, what they consume, that gives you perspective.

I think as we’re working within a market and you need tangible things to actually use, that is the most valuable thing: perspective, being able to understand what they care about.

Because a lot of non-profits were in place to be able to help the underprivileged. So the person at the top might not necessarily understand the problems at the bottom. Sometimes they do, and that’s not the case for everyone, but everyone’s different.

But I think those are perspectives that are worthwhile, and those are things that need to kind of come across in those assets that you keep, which is— we like to call it the Bible. You know, the brand guide is that Bible; it’s what you need to kind of stay with and interpret as it changes. So yeah, and these are— and this is really happening. That example I gave you is happening. It’s real time.

David Pisarek: There are 2 things I made a note of as you were talking. So organizations need to have a clear understanding of their persona or avatar, whatever you want to call it, right? And as part of that, you think about demographics and geographics, but the key thing is something called psychographics that you were talking about. Like, what do they care about? What do they believe in? Where do they hang out? Where do they spend their time? What do they think? All of that type of thing.

If anybody’s interested in more info on psychographics, after you finish listening to this episode, go listen to episode 16. I talk about psychographics on that episode and the importance of it. So go. Go listen to that later. Just make a note of it.

So one of the things I think that’s important is understanding sentiment. So what people think about your organization. And I’m curious if there are any tools that you might recommend for organizations that might want to try to figure this out.

To like, how do you, how do you detect sentiment? Good example, maybe bad example, right? You’ve got a company like Dyson. They make vacuums. If somebody posts, ‘This sucks’, is it like, that could be a good thing in their case because they wanted to, like, vacuum and get all the stuff. But if somebody posted, ‘You know what, your organization stinks, it sucks’; that’s a bad sentiment.

Benjamin Behrooz: I think a good way to kind of think about this is, as you’re walking through your different social platforms, as you’re presenting your brand as a whole, your non-profit, when they look at you, what is that fulfillment that they’re getting at first glance? And what are you doing to kind of enhance that feeling that they want to be able to have? Reason being, more so than ever, we’re seeing individuals going to brands, going to non-profits because they’re doing things that they believe in, but they don’t want to do themselves.

So we’re seeing a lot of normal brands that are partnering with non-profits because it’s a non-profit they believe in, and they don’t honestly donate to that non-profit, but they’ll purchase a pair of shoes because that non-profit made a pledge to connect. So it’s a very interesting place right now where people want to have that fulfillment because the person they bought their potatoes from is also donating those potatoes to children.

So it’s just, what is that thing that makes your cup full? That’s what’s happening on a common day. And we had examples specifically for this, like, I’m not gonna go pick up trash at the beach, but if they’re gonna do it, I’m all about that. So, what is it that makes that cup full for people?

I think that is one of those things that we’ve seen more so than ever where, ‘Hey, what are your causes? What do you guys believe in? What do you guys do?’ Before they’re able to get into big box stores. So that’s a definite conversation that comes.

David Pisarek: Yeah, maybe about, uh, a little bit over a year ago, I gave a keynote speech at Digital Marketing Conference of Canada, and I was talking about the importance of connecting with non-profits because of Gen Alpha and Gen Z and Gen X, where they care about the impact of the businesses. So companies like Patagonia and TOMS Shoes, where they recycle clothes or donate shoes to the homeless, things like that.

Yeah, their products cost a bit more, but the younger generations tend not to care so much about that because they know there’s social good that’s coming on the back end of it. And it’s a really interesting perspective. And I also have a workshop that I run every so often for non-profits to figure out how to find corporations to partner with and to get sponsorship and stuff like that. So it’s definitely interesting times compared to 20 years ago, right? Where it was like this segment, this segment; there wasn’t really much kind of overlap or crossover there.

Benjamin Behrooz: You know, there was something about, you know, you donate because you get that write-off, but now it’s becoming a mission, and it becomes a part of the ethos to do more. So I think it’s definitely going in the right direction. I think corporations partnering with non-profits can really make a difference. So I’m pushing for that, and I love the fact that you have an opportunity for people to learn more about how to do that.

David Pisarek: So when we think about websites, like, what role does a well-designed website play in helping to earn trust for new donors or volunteers or membership growth, you know, even before, like, somebody becomes involved?

Benjamin Behrooz: So I think with non-profits in general, accessibility is the most important thing. You would look at an entity that has a 50,000-square-foot facility where they’re creating food every day, people are going in, and they have banners everywhere bringing those people in. That’s an investment that somebody makes.

So for me, a website now, because you’re able to livestream, and we have a lot of our non-profits livestreaming events as they happen. Where they’re able to drive those older donors to be able to still be a part of what’s going on and donate towards the cause because they can do it from home. I think the ability to easily read it- easily readable, value-based content on your website so they’re able to get an education, and they’re able to share it with others.

I don’t think having a one-pager with a donate button is going to help. I think more than ever, you have people in the middle of the night. They’re looking stuff up; they’re trying to find a place. Depending on what your non-profit is and what you do, people are seeking you.

People are wanting to find a passageway. They’re wanting to find family grouping, something that’s bigger than them.

So I really advocate building out your message. And I’m not saying make up pages, but document what’s going on. If you’re doing a food drive, document it. If you don’t have enough people for the food drive, add a call to action to get people to help. Your microphone is your website. Your ability to be able to hit the button and be able to reach a million people is at your disposal more so than ever.

You don’t need to have a huge location to do it right now. Documenting your good deeds to the world, creating a footprint for yourself, is so essential to where Twitch users, live streamers— you have people that are in the non-profit space where they’re live streaming every single one of their events, and they’re having people every single second donate money, just live, real time. So the same way we’re seeing live streaming as people are selling products, that same idea is happening within the non-profit world because non-profits need donations.

So there definitely is this reality of technology for good, and I’m a big advocate for that. And I think accessibility is where non-profits are winning and being open to sharing with the world what you’re doing.

Having a secret has no value anymore. Documenting to have a bigger footprint is where you need to be.

David Pisarek: Yeah, and to your point, providing the education is going to let people understand the impact, right? Like, ‘Hey, there’s this crisis of undocumented citizens or people.’ I don’t, I don’t know what you call them, right? But, like, folks, humans that are there, right? And how can they help? And you hear, like, I’m in Canada, but we hear about everything that’s going on down in the States. And, you know, is there something that we could do to help? How— what is the right organization we should connect with?

And, to your point about the website, in my opinion, the reason it’s so critical and crucial that the websites are set up technically properly is because of AI. So people are going to Google. This started, I think, back in March of 2025. They made a shift in their algorithm, probably the biggest shift Google has ever made to search since they started, where they’ve got the Gemini results. I don’t know how long this is actually going to be true based on how fast technology is changing, but the Gemini results are showing up above the ads. That is how prominent AI is in terms of the tech sector.

You need to make sure that your website is properly aligned to be found by the AI so that you can come up in those search results.

So when somebody goes and says, ‘How can I help undocumented people in Los Angeles or in New Mexico?’, like wherever, you’re part of that conversation because people are getting this information without even getting to your website, right? It does cite the sources; you can click through, but we’re seeing a decline in traffic. But if you set up the site right, you have the right content, the right context, the right questions, you can actually be part of the conversation without even knowing it.

Benjamin Behrooz: A lot of AI is built off of specific terms and specific flows that it has. So I’m going to give a cheat code to all my people right now. We know reality. ChatGPT just made a deal with Yelp, so you’re only going to see Yelp listings show up as you’re doing a ChatGPT search; you’re no longer going to see Google listings.

So if you’re a non-profit and you want to be visible, get yourself up there. Have your members that are part of the organization and people that are donating share reviews, share photos on Yelp. These are things that happen in real time. So if you want additional visibility via ChatGPT, get a Yelp page up. You know, Google has always been king in regards to the Google My Business pages and making sure those things are there.

So I think a website is essential, but I also think those freeways that you’re going to kind of have your website go through, make sure you’re on them. Make sure the Yelp page is up, your local listing pages are up, because those are the social signals that AI is looking for to be able to kind of drive more people to your website.

Website traffic is drastically dropping because it’s no longer having you go to the site. It goes and reads everything off your on your website based on what you said is showing at the top. Because what Google is doing is they want to be able to just, every time, clean your search, cut the fat, cut the fat.

So we’re in a search-and-response world. If people want more than 3 to 4 clicks, they’re not doing it. So it’s just a request: get me to where I want to go. If it takes more than 5 seconds, I’m not coming. So that’s the reality that we’re in. I think Google is kind of doing that.

Make sure your website’s up to date because that’s what AI is reading, just as you said. Just making sure your local listing websites are claimed, they’re going to the right website, and your information is visible to the people that you care for, specific things that your organization does.

So that About section, jam that baby up with things that you guys are doing because that’s what AI is going to specifically read into.

David Pisarek: Then also make sure that you’ve claimed your listing, right? And because somebody else could go and claim it, change a bunch of stuff in there, and it’s gonna take months, maybe longer, to get access to that because they need to verify. And then they’ll send you, like, Google back in the day used to send a postcard to the mailing address with a code. Like, if you can claim it because nobody has yet, grab it right away.

So yeah, like within, I don’t know, half an hour of listening to this episode, go and grab your listing, check on it.

In terms of branding, what do you see as some of the common mistakes that non-profits or associations make? And what do you think is the most important thing that they fix first?

Benjamin Behrooz: You’re gonna laugh, but it’s the logo change. So I think, as you have different people that are part of your non-profit, the roles will change because, at times, they are at different times in their life where they make— they have an opening in time; they’re able to step into a specific role. So for us, we’re the gatekeeper. So that Dropbox account we have with all the logo files, those design files, how to use it, how not to use it- that’s something we really advocate.

So, a lot of our clients we work with, we really have that onboarding process. That SOP has a lot to do with their new hire, with reading the brand guide so they know, ‘Oh, I’m not going to add another pink tint to this because I like pink. I’m not going to bedazzle the logo because it looks good.’ So there definitely is that component of making sure, as you have new people step in, because it’s guaranteed, and at times these are volunteer roles.

For some of these people, make sure that’s a part of your SOP: that you have your logo, your stuff doesn’t shift as a new person comes in the new season.

With every new season, you don’t have a brand new non-profit because, like we said earlier, it’s that consistency and that ability for people to feel familiar with what you have, for people to be comfortable.

I think the biggest other thing is accessibility. And I think we ran through that, which is just making sure that you’re able to do more and help people. Because you’re advocating for yourself. If you don’t share what you’re doing, no one will find you.

David Pisarek: Yeah, and then there’s also, like, the technical accessibility. People with visual impairments or physical impairments who might use assistive devices to help them browse the web, right? Not everybody has sight or has, like, full vision. They might have partially impacted, and so they use something called a screen reader. Is your site navigable using the Tab key?

There are some very basic checks out there, and honestly, most of the fixes are relatively straightforward to do. I’m not going to get into the debate about those, like, overlays, those accessibility overlays, whether they’re actually legally compliant or not, or whether they’ll protect you in case of a lawsuit, whatever. It doesn’t matter if you fix the core.

Getting any of those add-ons actually will just kind of enhance the person’s ability, but you’ve got to fix it at the core problem. And yeah, we’ve worked with some organizations where they’re like, ‘We don’t like the logo.’ I asked them, ‘Why? What about it?’ And I asked them like 4 or 5 times why, right? Because they’ll say, ‘Oh, because the colour doesn’t represent—’ ‘Why do you feel that way?’ And eventually you’re going to get to the real answer.

And I think a lot of organizations, people are scared to question anybody kind of a level or 2 or 3 above them. But I would ask you to have dialogue and have conversations. Say, ‘I know that you feel this way. I just want to sit down and have, like, a real conversation about this. Don’t get mad at me, but I want to get a better understanding so I know where you’re coming from.’ And then make it about you, not them. They won’t get defensive over it.

We need to have more of those conversations. ‘Oh, we need to add this thing on the homepage, this giant banner, because we have a new person on the board.’ Well, is that why? Like, is that the right spot? Are they a major donor also? Like, we should just add them to the board of directors page on our site. Like, why are we— so I would say proceed with caution, but question.

Benjamin Behrooz: You know, the way we tend to tackle this, we’re a springboard of inspiration. So as we kind of understand what the actual problem is or what they’re trying to get to, we will find a better way to kind of get what they want done.

So sometimes, you’re asking someone to do web development work or present something, but they have something in their mind. So, the springboard to inspiration, I think, is the best way for us to do it. And in talking it out, I really do believe that is what makes sense. And people explain things in different ways. So the more you’re able to get examples and be able to kind of show examples, the more that tends to work really well.

So if anyone is ever in a bind and you’re trying to speak to a designer- God help you if it’s a developer- but try to give examples, try to show, and explain with adjectives and feelings to help with the colour and the flow and things that you see. So don’t be scared to be descriptive. Don’t be scared to share other websites and feelings. A designer, a developer- these people will understand those things.

Because they’re tangible. They’re there.

David Pisarek: Love it. Ben, some amazing items that have come out. I love that like springboard idea there. One thing I would add: if you can record the conversation, it doesn’t need to be video, just audio. You can feed that through AI to help synthesize it, create a list like, ‘Here’s what we talked about.’ You can send that back to them and go, ‘Hey, am I accurate with this? Like, is this right? Is this not right? Am I off with anything?’ You can refine it, and then at least you’ve got a starting point to move forward from.

Benjamin Behrooz: That definitely is the cheat code of all cheat codes. Recording your screen, recording and putting the AI and creating SOPs, different things based on that. So I definitely think that’s an amazing tip you just gave everybody.

David Pisarek: Yeah. So loved our conversation. Branding, visibility, AI, so much. In this, like, quick episode here. I hope that the folks that have been listening have been able to get, you know, at least one solid item out of here that they’ll go back and talk with their team or think about even themselves if they’re like a solo shop.

I like to kind of put all of my guests on the spot right at the end of the episode here. So if you were to issue everybody one challenge that you want them to do maybe within 1 or 2 days of listening to this episode, what would that challenge be?

Benjamin Behrooz: Put yourself in a position that you haven’t been in before.

The reason being, the term get comfortable with being uncomfortable is probably one of the most inspiring things, because I always advocate for people to put yourself in places you haven’t been, because that will get you to places you haven’t.

I’m an advocate for people to get out. Talk to people. So, do things you haven’t done. Find inspiration in the smallest things. And I mean this because even as a creative, I have 100 staff members. There are moments when I can take 30 minutes and go look at some art or go listen to something that has nothing to do with what I have to do. But the understanding they share with me, the colours I see, the words they use, they inspire me.

So put yourself in positions that you haven’t been. Try to see the other side of things, not just what you’re comfortable with.

David Pisarek: Love that idea. The one thing that comes to mind for me is fail fast, right?

Like, try something. If it doesn’t work, done. But at least you’ve tried it, right? And the experience, the knowledge, the understanding of, ‘I did this, it didn’t work,’ that’s going to carry through the rest of your life.

And you’re going to teach somebody. Maybe you have a summer intern, a student, a new employee, or whatever. You’re like, ‘I tried this once upon a time. You want to try it? Go for it, right? I tried this. I couldn’t get it to work. Maybe you can. I wasn’t able to.’ I love that idea. If anybody wants to get in touch with you, Ben, what, what do they need to do? Where do they go?

Benjamin Behrooz: Um, you guys can check out my website, benbehrooz.com. Our main website as well: brandinglosangeles.com. We are in 5 major markets. So we’re in New York with Branding NYC. We’re in Hawaii with Branding Aloha. We have Branding Texas Agency. We are able to help you grow your footprint and make a long-lasting impression. And those are things that are at our core. We’re storytellers, so we’d love to bring your story to life. And if that’s something that would be of interest to you, non-profit, love to help you guys.

David Pisarek: Thank you so much, Ben, for joining in. It’s been great having you here on the Non-profit Digital Success Podcast. To everybody listening, if you want the links that Ben just mentioned or any of the resources or the chat transcript, or to watch or listen to this episode, just head over to our podcast page at nonprofitdigitalsuccess.com. Click on this episode for all the details.

And until next time, keep on being successful!