147 – The Secret Membership Model for Non-Profits and Associations with Nathalie Doremieux

Episode Transcription

David Pisarek: Welcome to the Non-profit Digital Success Podcast, brought to you by wowdigital.com, your best place for non-profit websites and design, now including fractional CMO support. Working with a tiny budget and no tech team, Nathalie has spent 20 years building websites, more than 300 of them, and now co-runs the Membership Lab with her husband. She shares what to build first and how membership model can bring in steady support. So stay tuned and let’s make every dollar of your website budget count. Welcome to the Non-profit Digital Success Podcast. I’m your host, David, and in this episode we’re going to be talking about website strategy, WordPress, AI, and membership models with Nathalie Doremieux. Nathalie is the co-founder of the Membership Lab, which she runs with her husband. She’s been in business for over 20 years and has helped hundreds of professionals create their online presence. She’s built over 300 websites through her career. And Nathalie, thank you so much for joining us.

Nathalie Doremieux: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, David. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

David Pisarek: We’ve been working with a number of associations and membership based organizations recently, and I’ve been looking forward to connecting and having this conversation and see what I can take from this so that we can, you know, do better for, for our clients. So I guess let’s just jump right in. You’ve built over 300 websites. What do you find non-profit leaders who get great results do differently from the ones who kind of stay stuck?

Nathalie Doremieux: Well, I think it comes down to having a strategy. Just because you have a website and it has the right content by you doesn’t mean that people are going to find it. So a website without traffic is useless. So when you think about website and what it needs to look like and what content do I need to put there, you also need to think about how am I going to share this? Who is going to see this? Do they know me? Do they not know me? Because they are not going to look for the same things. Or do you wanna be found by search engines or now AI? Another ballgame, right? So it really comes down to this. It’s like, if you don’t have a strategy, you just have a place on the internet that nobody knows about, right? And you get no traffic and then you’re wondering, my website does nothing for me.

David Pisarek: Yeah, so a lot of people think of strategy, and this is our approach also, is what, what is the strategy? Let’s identify it. But I think ultimately, it has to come back to what is the purpose of the organization? And is it something that anybody actually cares about? Because if people aren’t feeling the emotional appeal of the organization, then how can you possibly sway them?

Nathalie Doremieux: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it comes down to The website, if you can see the website as a solution to a problem, right? Your problem is you want to be seen, you want to be found, and you want that when you talk with someone, potential partner for example, that they have a place to go where you don’t have to send them an email with a bunch of stuff. You know, that’s another way, that’s another problem you’re trying to solve, right? So I think that it really comes down to that, you know, what is the purpose? of the website? What problem is it trying to solve? And from there, again, you build a strategy and it helps you figure out what does the website need to have, you know, in terms of features and content.

David Pisarek: That first conversation that you have with a leader, what does that usually kind of sound like? What is it that you might be asking them so that like the listeners to this, they, they kind of know what to expect or what they should be thinking about?

Nathalie Doremieux: Yeah. Well, the first question is why? Why do you want a membership? Why do you want the website? What are you trying to achieve? Because sometimes people think that the solution is so-and-so, right? So they have a problem and they assume, or they see somebody who has that and they’re like, I want the same thing. And I want the same thing that she has or he has is very dangerous. Because you only see the tip of the iceberg, right? You don’t know what else is behind, you know, how things are working. You only see one piece, and it’s very likely, 99.9% of the time, that this thing that you see is only a tiny piece, right? And the rest, most of it, you can’t see. So I hear this often, you know, like, yeah, I’m looking at this person, she’s kind of my— not competitor, but, you know, we’re in a similar field, but we do things a bit differently, and I want that. And they think that by having that, they will be able to have the success and the visibility that they have. You don’t know if they are running ads, you know, if they are running events, if they have tons of partners who share.

You don’t know all of that. So there are the questions I always ask, you know, like, why, why, why did you reach out? And why do you want to do this?

David Pisarek: I think it really is important to to ask why. And that’s one of the things I do as well. I ask why. They give me an answer and I ask why again. Like, why, right? And I usually try to go like 4 or 5 times with it to really get to the, the heart of the real answer. So for anybody listening, ask yourself why.

Nathalie Doremieux: Mm-hmm.

David Pisarek: Talk to your colleagues. Talk to other people in the organization. Talk to your partner, your spouse, right? And say like, Help me answer this. Why? Why do we do this? Why is this the process that we follow? Why is this what we’re trying to achieve?

Nathalie Doremieux: Yeah, and you’re totally right that it has several levels. And you have to say, when they say something, you say, okay, so that why? So that I can have this, so that I can have that. And then you drill down to the more emotional, deeper desire that they might have been hiding. And that’s where you can really start to look into what solution they really need because they told you something that was surface level, but the problem is much deeper and they might not be totally aware of it.

David Pisarek: Yeah, I feel like sometimes in these conversations, we’re a little bit of a therapist, right? Helping them understand what’s going on, helping them work through some of these things. And that’s great, right? That’s why organizations bring in consultants like yourself to help sort out these type of problems. So let’s say that I’m an executive director and I pull up my website right now. What’s the first mistake that you would spot? And what does that actually cost the organization?

Nathalie Doremieux: I would say like how you’re using your website. But generally speaking, there are 2 types of content that reach 2 different audiences. There is the content that is basically going to show you what it is that you do, what problem you solve for what people, what is your unique solution, and what are your values, what do you stand for, right? So they need to be able to see that. And then there is another section that is more about you and your team and your, you know, what you stand for and all these things. And this is more for people that maybe have seen your profile on LinkedIn or something like that, you know, like you’ve met somewhere and they want to know a bit more, they start to get curious, but nobody is going to go and read your about page if they have never heard of you. They are going to do a quick like, what can this person do for me? And you have a couple of seconds, you know, I don’t know what it is right now, if it’s 5 seconds or 7 seconds, whatever that is, for people to say, I’m going to look up, I’m going to close the tab, right?

So it’s really important that especially if you bring cold traffic to your website, that it has that place where people can identify quickly, this is what we do and this is who we do it for.

David Pisarek: There’s a statistic around the amount of time, and it, it’s actually really interesting. It says that the human brain can make a decision on whether something is trustworthy or not trustworthy in 0.05 of a second. Like super fast, right? So as long as it took me to say that you can make these decisions, you could probably make like 40 of them in the amount of time. And so when somebody pulls up the website, it’s important that it looks clean, that it looks modern. It doesn’t necessarily need to be artistic and trendy, but it needs to look like it was made in the last maybe 2 years, right? Mm-hmm. It needs to feel like it represents the organization, the quality of the work that everybody, all these non-profits and, and associations and member organizations, like the quality of what they’re doing. And a lot of them are really not good. Really, really not good. So, you know, maybe there’s templates out there you can switch up really quickly, things like that. One of the bigger things that we’ve seen— we’ve done like over 850 audits on organization websites— a lot of websites talk about themselves, right?

It’s like, we do this, we do this. The thing that I love talking about is switching that. To talk, to engage the visitor that’s coming. So instead of saying, we help starving children in whatever country, or we help dentists continue their learning development so they stay accredited, or whatever, there’s some simple shifts that people can make in the wording so that it talks about the person who’s coming there first. Then there’s a right time and place to talk about yourself, but that first engaging thing, it has to be about them because then they go— Yeah. in the right place. So let’s say my board of directors wants a better website. They have a really small budget. Maybe they don’t have somebody in their team that’s like a tech person. Where do you think they should spend the first few dollars?

Nathalie Doremieux: Probably in an audit, because often not everything needs to be thrown away, right? It’s about identifying if there is a problem in the wording, in the messaging, if it’s a visual problem, like if it’s in the design, if it’s in the branding, like it doesn’t connect with the other, you know, branding elements that they have out there, if there is a disconnect. I mean, imagine you see somebody and then you have a flyer, it’s got some colors, branding, it’s quite nice. You go to the website, it’s 1998 or 2000, it’s like, oh, what happened there, right? There is a disconnect, and that’s the first thing that people are going to So the audit is really going to help figure out what is the area. Maybe it’s everything, but very often it’s not. And then figure out what is the goal, what is not working with the website. And often people will be more likely to also spend on the website if they know that there is some type of ROI, meaning start bringing in analytics if you don’t have them. Like who is visiting, where people are coming from, a better place for people to actually connect.

you know, with you and things like that.

David Pisarek: Anybody that doesn’t have analytics on their website, I really encourage you to do it today. It’s free.

Nathalie Doremieux: Google

David Pisarek: Analytics,

Nathalie Doremieux: we said it at the same time, it’s free. Yes,

David Pisarek: it’s free. Just go and sign up. Um, but it, it, it’s more than Google Analytics, right? There’s another platform,

Nathalie Doremieux: uh,

David Pisarek: Google Search Console. Highly recommend that you get that set up as well because when Google redid it from UA3 to GA4, they kind of like made it really difficult in Analytics to find the keywords that people are using. In GSC, it’s right there. It’s really easy. So again, that’s also free. So why not set it up and get the data that’s going to help you make some smart decisions? Exactly. But I think in terms of the audit, sometimes a lot of people are stuck in their mode with their blinders on and they see their website and they’re like, this is okay, this is okay, this is okay. I really do think it’s important to get an outside perspective on it so that you can get some, you know, third-party view who’s worked with other organizations that knows what the best practices are, accessibility compliance. There’s all kinds of things that you should be thinking about, and maybe, maybe it’s hard to as an insider. So, you know, I think I love the idea. Let’s get an audit, uh, get that done first thing. Is there anything that you think Could maybe wait 6 months or a year?

Nathalie Doremieux: Well, it depends when you want a result, right? Ideally, it’s yesterday that you wanted to do that, right? So if you start thinking maybe my website is not up to par, then it’s now that you need to plan, you know, for the next version, right? I mean, in 6 months, the problem is only going to get bigger, especially if you want to use the website as a way to attract people, build partnerships, relationships, you know, clients, students, you know, whatever it is that you do, then the sooner the better, because your website is going to need traction. It’s not an overnight, oh, it’s redone and boom, everybody’s coming. It doesn’t work that way.

David Pisarek: A slow burn. It’s a slow process. So I, I absolutely agree. The sooner you could get started, the better off it is. And what does that actually mean? It means that Google and and the AI platforms are gonna start indexing your content sooner and you’re gonna be part of the conversation. The longer you wait, it’s gonna be harder to kind of climb up the ranks so that you are part of the Gemini results or ChatGPT or Claude or Perplexity or any of them that are out there. And you want to make sure that the sooner you can start working towards that, the better off. Yeah. At the same time, getting some estimates and quotes and understanding what the budget side of it is. And there’s all kinds of different things you can do. Like you can set up with Wix or Weebly or Squarespace. I, I don’t personally like those, but if you need something really quick, those platforms are, are decent. You really do have to just take that first step and start moving forward with it.

Nathalie Doremieux: Exactly. And when that happens, you also need to think about who is going to maintain that site, who is going to keep the data, not just in terms of like, you know, redoing or if anything breaks. I mean, that, that’s one thing, but like more like new information that you want to share. Say if you’re going to blog, if you’re going to have different events and things like that. So it also needs to be a platform that allows you to do this. So before you redo anything, think about what are the features that I’m going to need. Oh, we go to a lot of events, we need to be able to have people register for events, you know, and things like that. And of course, like you said, now is the best time to redo your website for SEO and GEO, you know, GEO being, you know, for LLMs, you know, for AI to find you, just because we start to have a really good understanding what the content needs to be now, and it’s very different than SEO. So it’s a good time to refresh your website so that it becomes GEO-friendly, because I can tell you right now it’s not, because it’s different content, type of content.

But yeah, for all these reasons, Today is the best day to, to start.

David Pisarek: I’m happy that you mentioned AI because I’m part of a group of a large group of web agencies, and we get together every couple weeks. We have lots of conversations. There’s a Slack group, there’s all kinds of stuff there, and there’s a lot of conversation around using AI to build websites versus platforms like WordPress, for example. And the agencies that I’m talking with, They’re saying they’re moving towards using AI to build out the websites, and I don’t like that personally. I’m, I’m not a fan of that. You can build it out super fast. The websites tend to kind of look very, very similar, like they all have the eyebrow text over the headings and stuff like that. But it’s the management and maintenance of the site afterwards that becomes a problem. You can’t hand it off if You’ve built it locally, so you’re, you’re very much dependent on the agency, the consultant, the volunteer, the student, whoever it was that built it for you. And the AI platforms are changing, so by the time this episode airs, it might be radically different. But I, I believe that WordPress, which powers like 40-something percent of the internet, is a platform that if you’ve got the right page builder in place, it’s easy to manage and maintain by the staff.

And I’m curious what your opinion is.

Nathalie Doremieux: Oh yeah. I mean, I agree with you 100%. So we build websites. Our background is in software engineering. My husband and I spent 10 years in Silicon Valley as software engineers, so we can do non–WordPress. But the whole problem is that we build websites that are turnkey because we want to empower people to be able to manage it, add content to it. So it’s not a black box to them and we don’t put chains on them, like the golden caps that now you need us to make any change and we’re going to charge you an arm and a leg. We have several sites that are done by AI, but they are done for us. Okay, so they are really quick. And guess what? Almost every day the libraries change. That moves really, really fast. That means that there is no way you can have a chunky website that’s built by AI. There is absolutely no way. That means that somebody is selling you an AI website, even if you pay, say, $200. I’ve seen some crazy low prices. These people have no marketing knowledge at all. They are like just builders. I mean, you could sell cans of peas, they don’t care.

They’re into the let’s do it fast and do as many as we can, right? And they’re going to tell you, well, if you want to make changes, it’s going to be this much every time. So what’s going to happen? You’re not going to make the change that you want because there is this friction every time. That’s why WordPress allows us and has been allowing us for years to create those turnkeys. And I do tons of tutorial videos. I checked, I have thousands and thousands of videos in Loom that I’ve done for my clients to show them how to do things. But now it’s on them. And to me, that’s the service as an agency or a consultant that we need to provide, not those golden chains. Now for the use of AI, I don’t know if you’re aware, we use Elementor a lot right now as the builder, and you can connect to their NCP server and you can connect to Claude if you want. And then you can say, okay, can you duplicate this page, change this section and this? Can you make it animated and things like that? And it will just do it in Elementor.

So your client has the same experience. When they manage it, but you don’t have to create your sections and your banner and put your button and your image. You just tell AI how to do it. Now, should we charge less because of that? I don’t think so. Actually, we’re going to be faster. I don’t think that AI coming into play is going to make websites cheaper. I think it can make them a lot more interactive and easy on the eye, let’s say. Without having to, you know, spend a lot of money in a branding expert that’s gonna take, you know, 6 weeks or 3 months to come up with a logo and a color palette. Sorry, like, but you see what I’m talking about, right? Like sometimes maybe this is needed. I’ve never seen that, but that’s where we are. I think that’s how I see AI and websites.

David Pisarek: There are times when AI is very helpful. You don’t like how something sounds on the website. Throw it into AI, tell it to give you 10 different versions. You pick one that’s kind of there, you modify it a little bit. It’s really great for brainstorming. It’s good for some little updates if you’re connecting into MCP. We use Divi Builder as well as Elementor. It depends on the use case, and I guess the more— I’m gonna say difficult, but like the more functionality that needs to be integrated in the website, we’ll lean more towards Elementor. But we’ve used AI to build out page components, save them as JSON, and then import them in. And we still have to tweak them a little bit, but it saved us maybe 2 hours of time, which is helpful because it allows us to get through the project faster, deliver better— not better, but deliver quicker for the client and make sure, you know, everything’s going. So let’s, I guess, switch back out of kind of, I guess, tech mode here. ‘Cause like we— Yeah. You and I could probably go for 5, 6 hours talking about this side of it.

I did wanna touch on it so anybody listening will We’ll get some insight there. So let’s jump back to the membership side of stuff.

Nathalie Doremieux: Yes.

David Pisarek: Monthly recurring revenue, MRR, or ARR, annual recurring revenue. Those are the models that membership organizations typically rely on, as well as other, like, non–members paying a little bit more to attend an event and things like that. Could a membership or monthly giving model work for a non-profit? How do you think that might work?

Nathalie Doremieux: A membership is a recurring solution to a recurring problem. So if you look back at what a non-profit needs, specific non-profit needs, it’s an opportunity to serve a group of people that has a need while getting that recurring income every single month, right? So that they know they have this money that is coming in. Now the key is to find what is that recurring problem. What are people willing to pay for, basically, that they can offer in a way that is scalable, that can have a learning component, community component, an events component that can be calls, but that can be physical events, right? And that can be a combination of all of that.

David Pisarek: Yeah, I think one of the things non-profits need to be thinking about is bringing in revenue on a regular basis. It makes it easier to plan. And to budget. It also makes it easier to actually fundraise more. So if you had a donation page on your website and you were asking for $50, let’s say it was like $50, $100, $250, $500, right? If somebody is going to go, yeah, you know what, I can donate $50. Mm-hmm. If you were to ask them to donate $5 a month instead, that would be $60 for the year instead of $50. And $5 a month is, you know, mentally and emotionally easier to go, yeah, okay. At some point they’re gonna see this renew the following year. Let’s say it was the $50 a year. Why am I giving $50 versus $5 a month? That’s like inflation has gone crazy. That’s what a coffee, one coffee a day would cover, right? Or one every 2 days or whatever. So I think it gives you an opportunity. I would encourage everybody on their donation forms to actually switch from annual. Mm-hmm. As the first one, to have the monthly be the default.

It’s a smaller amount, it’s easier for people to understand, and it’ll actually bring you more money. If you know you’ve got $4,000 a month that’s coming in, $50 a month coming in, it allows you to plan going, oh, okay, we, we’re obviously going to plan for growth, but based on what we’ve currently got coming in, we can expect that to be about the same, plus minus 5%, or whatever your growth vector is. And you can plan, okay, cool, we’ve got $4,000 next month. What are we going to do? How are we going to spend it? What supplies do we need? Or do we need staffing? Do we need to rent a venue for something? It makes it easier. So in terms of the membership side of stuff, do you have thoughts of whether organizations should ask for like a monthly membership fee versus an annual fee?

Nathalie Doremieux: I think the monthly membership fee is an amazing idea because usually people who will donate Believe in the cause. And like you said, giving $5 is easier than giving $50. And that’s the case for this type of membership. It’s where basically people want to belong. They want to belong and be a part of something. They want to have that feeling that they’re helping, right? So by doing, even if it’s just $5 a month, now they belong and they are part of it. And they can have special perks from that. Maybe they have insights, you know, like a first view on what the events that are coming in. Maybe they have a discount ticket or maybe they have an extra seat for something, right? Make them feel special because they are part of making this whole thing work, right? So there are ways to make this monthly attractive and definitely, I mean, especially now people giving $50, you know, they really, really have to Believe in the thing, but like just $5 a month, I mean, to me makes total sense, you know, and, and you’re gonna get more basically because it’s $60 at the end and they will probably continue to do that.

David Pisarek: I saw something actually really interesting this week. There was a prospective client that reached out and they booked a call, they booked a consult with me, and when I went to their website to kind of dig around and look a little bit, and I was looking around at their membership, I’m model. They’re a governing organization, and their membership model I thought was really interesting, where they were saying it was— I forget the amount. I think it was like $24 a pay period is what they were charging. That’s interesting. So every time you get— you’re paid, so I guess it’s 26 payments. I don’t know how it works for like monthly or people that get biweekly or weekly or whatever, but I thought it was an interesting model. For membership fees?

Nathalie Doremieux: Well, it’s a way to, you know how, you know, people that would do Profit First and things like that, like when you get your paycheck, you put some aside for this and for that. And then for like, you know, what am I going to contribute to? And it just, that makes it easy. Like every single month you have that, you put it in that bucket. So it totally fits the people that are doing that and that are just giving every time that they get paid. So I think it’s really smart. I’d never heard of it either, but I think it’s really smart. I think what’s important as well, don’t give people too many options. A confused mind makes no decision. Yeah, don’t give them like 10 ways to, to, to donate. I think that’s my—

David Pisarek: Some, some organizations have like, you have to pick who you are. Are you a student? Are you an international? Are you a government employee? Are you this? Are you this? Are you this? Are you this? And you have to look through this list. It’s like, why don’t you just simplify this? Have like 3 tiers. Absolutely. So in terms of pricing model, usually you go with an odd number of tiers. So I would typically recommend 3 or 5. 5 is a little bit much for membership, but 3 tiers. And it could be based on who you are, or it could be based on the frequency. Do you want an annual membership? Do you want a 6-month membership? Do you want a monthly membership, quarterly membership? Like, you can figure out all that type of stuff, and there could be different benefits and perks. And obviously the pricing model should change based on how long people are committing to, to be a member or not, right?

Nathalie Doremieux: Now, that doesn’t mean that you can’t allow people to do a one-time donation. That’s also important. There are times where people have a lump sum of money, they’re looking to give it away. And if they come to you and they see there is only a $5 a month, like, well, I’m not gonna go there because I have, you know, like, you see what I mean? Like, I think it’s important to say, you know, one-time donation somewhere where people can actually give the amount.

David Pisarek: Okay, so as somebody working in the organization, let’s say I only have 30 minutes this week. What is the one change that you would tell me that I need to make

Nathalie Doremieux: So first you need to go, go check your website because I don’t know what it is, in what state it is, right? Is it clear what you do? Like if somebody that doesn’t know you comes to the site and sees the first page, like do they want to continue or they’re like, I don’t know who they are, why are they talking about themselves? You know, like what can you do for me, right? 2, if your focus for the website is to bring in those donations, those memberships, is it clear how they can donate? And then your website always needs to have some types of trust element, so who you’re partnering with, what you’re doing with the donations, you know, and things like that. So they have to have a feel once they’re like, okay, I can take a look, that sounds legit, then I’m going to go scroll down the page, right, and start to look into, okay, what is their solution, what they stand for, And show them, like, if you’re doing events, you know, example of, you know, events, they see, they need to see testimonials, images, and things like that, right? A place for them to reach out to you, that’s the minimum, and a place where they can donate, sign up to the membership.

David Pisarek: There are so many organizations that forget about the how to get in touch part.

Nathalie Doremieux: Sometimes it’s so hard. I mean, we know to try to go to the footer and see if there is a link and stuff like that. They make us work really, really hard that there should be a button, you know, contact, you know, there has to be a menu button somewhere at the top where people can reach out if they have any questions.

David Pisarek: Not everybody is comfortable filling out a web form or contact form or anything like that. Make it easy for people to get in touch with your organization if they want to become a member. If you’re If you’re an association, don’t make it hard for them to understand the benefits. And if they want to reach out, you know, that’s the stuff that you need to be thinking about is, all right, maybe as an organization you don’t have enough people to answer the phones. Okay, fine. Is there a voicemail that people can just go and leave a message and you get back to them as soon as you can? That’s totally fine too, right? But don’t make it hard for people to figure out how to get in touch with you. Absolutely. Nathalie, amazing insights. Love the conversation around like building a website, AI models for pricing, membership, and donations. I think a lot of associations and non-profits that have been listening to this are going to walk away with some really, really great insights. So thank you so much for, for being here and filling us in with your insight and your pointers and your tips.

I like to put my guests on the spot near the end of my episodes. I’m gonna ask you here if you can give anybody listening to this a challenge, something you want them to do within the next 24 hours of listening to the episode, what would you want them to do?

Nathalie Doremieux: I would say pick someone that you know, but that doesn’t necessarily know what you’re about. Ask them to go to the website, 5 minutes, then ask them, what do you think we are doing? Can we reach out? Can you easily reach out to us? Do you understand like how you can make a donation or, you know, sign up to the membership if you have one? Basically get outside feedback because we are blind to our own things. I think you said it not in those terms, but that’s, that’s my wording. Like we’re blind to our own things and, um, get an outside view because we, especially if we’ve made it, we love our websites. We’re like, we are not objective, absolutely not. And after a while we just can’t even see it, right? You know what I’m talking about? Like, I can’t see it anymore, I can’t read it, that’s it. So ask someone else, you know, is it clear what we stand for? Is it clear what we do, why we do it? And is it easy to contact us? And that’s, I think that’s a great start. That’s gonna give you some ideas of what you could improve.

David Pisarek: That’s amazing. And before we started recording here, we were talking about you’ve got a free offer. Um, so I guess tell everybody, how can they get in touch and what is the offer that you have?

Nathalie Doremieux: Yeah, sure. So, so basically the, the offer is free consultations. Basically, if people want to hop on a call, I still do them for free because I learn so much from them, as much as I can give, you know, like I Don’t hold anything back, you know, for 45 minutes. You can pretty much ask me anything. We can look over your website. We’re not gonna fix everything and have the solution in 45 minutes, but I can give you pointers on what to focus on and give you an outside view, basically, of somebody that has built hundreds of them.

David Pisarek: That’s amazing, Nathalie. Thank you so much for being here on the non-profit Digital Success Podcast. For everybody listening, If you want any of the resources or things that we spoke about on this, just head over to our podcast page at non-profitdigitalsuccess.com. Click on this episode for all of the details. And until next time, keep on being successful.