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043 – The best way to improve your non-profit’s engagement using video, with David Phu

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In this episode, we’re happy to have David Phu! David is the co-owner of Nonprofit Video Comms, where he teaches small non-profits to do their own video marketing to raise awareness, raise funds, and be helpful. We brought him on the show so we can discuss the power videos can have in a non-profit marketing strategy, and how non-profits can start leveraging them.

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Episode Transcription

David Pisarek: Welcome to the Non-Profit Digital Success Podcast. I’m your host, David, and today I’m excited to be talking with another David, David Phu on the show, allow me to introduce him.

David is the co-owner of Nonprofit Video Comms, where he teaches small non-profits to do their own video marketing, simple videos that help non-profits like yours, raise awareness, raise funds, and be helpful. David thinks fancy branding is a waste of time for small non-profits who should get out there, get seen with equipment that they already own. He’s probably talking about things like phones. He’s been in the non-profit world for about 20 years, and he’s been producing video for over 10 years. He studied and loves the art and the style of communications. David, thank you so much for being on the show today.

David Phu: Thank you! I’m happy to here, thanks for inviting me.

David Pisarek: What’s new? What’s the latest?

David Phu: Well, we previously switched away from full video production. That was a good time. But after figuring out that the world wants authentic, the world wants direct communication, we seem to be finding a lot of work just helping non-profits do it themselves. And that’s actually even more fun for me. I love seeing non-profits get on camera, get a bit uncomfortable, find themselves, find their voice and just really break through and watch them find a more direct conversation with their audience. So that’s where I’m at right now with the video stuff.

David Pisarek: That sounds like a really interesting shift, going away from the actual production and going into like a training kind of mode, helping be like an extension of their team, but in a resource type of way and showing them, you know, what they could do, how they can do it in the backend needed to make, you know, the quote-unquote magic happen.

David Phu: Yeah, exactly. It’s interesting, because as much as I still dream about high end cinematic video projects and film making and things like that. Storytelling dramatic things. What I love most about working with non-profits is, I think there’s a real urgency to really just get people in the door with the urgent services, get the donations in the door, get the volunteers hired and trained. That’s that’s the thing I’m interested in most when it comes to video communication.

David Pisarek: I think there’s certainly a lot of different ways that non-profits can use video, but let’s talk about, you know, like why should non-profits use video? Why are you so passionate about this?

David Phu: Well, here’s a disclaimer. I don’t think everyone should use video. I don’t buy into the fact that it’s the future of everything. And if you don’t have it, you’re going to disappear. I think it depends on what your needs are, it depends what kind of non-profit you are, and it depends if your audience even has reliable enough technology.

But here’s why I think video is really powerful. Besides virtual reality, it is the closest thing you’re going to get to a human connection. The body language, the voice, the face takes care of, I don’t remember the actual number, but the majority of completing a message, of completing a communication. So it beats text only, it beats photography only, and it’s what I call humanizing. Even if it’s not one on one and it’s not direct, it has a human element that really completes information. It really gives people a clearer, fuller picture of what they’re getting into so that they can make more confident and faster decisions.

David Pisarek: Yeah. And I think there’s a lot to be said for the non-verbal communication cues that happen in our society, right? Different societies perceive things a little bit different, you know, but for the area that you’re in, the people you’re trying to connect with, the way you talk, the way you speak, the way you look, the style, the angle that you’re talking at, you know, whether you have your arms crossed or you’re talking with your hands in your pocket, right. There’s a lot of the non-verbal communication cues that can definitely come through in video.

David Phu: Yeah. David, have you ever seen this yourself where you read someone’s resume or bio or whatever, and it might be kind of stiff, very academic, a lot of credentials. And then you maybe saw this person talk in an interview suddenly like this whole image you had of them melts away. Like this is a really warm person or a funny person. I’m sure you’ve experienced that.

David Pisarek: Absolutely. You mentioned that, you know, video isn’t necessarily right for everybody, but for those that are willing to dip their toe in the water, who can make video, who can do that?

David Phu: Well, the easy answer is that anybody can, who has a smartphone or a webcam. As the pandemic has shown, the majority of non-profits seem to already be doing it by using Zoom, or Skype, or Teams, whatever it is. But the people who can do it, the most flexibly are the smaller non-profits, I’m talking about probably smaller than 50 or 40 staff members. And the reason I say this is because, and this is only my experience, but in larger non-profits, there’s a lot of kind of internal red tape. There’s everyone becomes a cook in the kitchen. Everyone has an opinion about editing. Everyone has kind of a branding process that you have to, a checklist you got to hit. And so it slows things down.

But when it comes to making your own video, the small non-profit has, a huge leg up, you know, less people to approve things. You can more quickly do things to like, just ask your audience what interests them, you can more quickly do things. Fix mistakes without getting permission. Often, you don’t have a branding style guide or a checklist to use. It’s just faster. So small non-profits, webcam, smartphone, go for it.

David Pisarek: I think that’s really interesting, in terms of a financial commitment, most laptops have webcams built in. Lots of people have phones, whether they’re Android or apple, we’re not going to get into a war of which platform is better, but you’ve got one you can hit record. You can jump on Zoom and just record yourself just talking to the camera, just you alone. Right? You don’t necessarily need somebody else like a call, like what we’re doing right now. You can just film yourself. You’ve got the software to be able to do it.

David Phu: Oh man. Even as a video guy, I was only recently blown away by the fact that, “oh yeah, I can use Zoom as a video studio”. So for example, what is it, screen sharing? I could sit here by myself, recording by myself with a screen share and just walk through a presentation, walk through a proposal and send it off as a private email to somebody which in itself is video marketing. You’re using the power of video to persuade somebody, to convince somebody, to communicate with somebody. So yeah, it’s as simple as that, use Zoom.

David Pisarek: Yeah. There’s another platform that more agencies typically use, but non-profits could maybe benefit from, it’s called Loom. You can make quick, short little videos, and you can send them off right from there. And it’ll actually embed a little animated GIF of you in, sorry, GIF for anyone that wants to pronounce it properly, in the email to draw more attention to it as well.

David Phu: I love Loom. Other people are doing it now too. Vimeo has their own, Canva has their own, Wistia has one, but I think Loom might be one of the earlier, more established ones. And I love it. I love that when I first used it I remember you could have a circle of your face, right on top of whatever presentation you’re doing. That was super impressive.

David Pisarek: Yeah. Those kind of neat little things. Imagine as a non-profit, what this could do to help steward donors or to help convince somebody to fund a new research project that you’re thinking of doing, and you can show really the benefits and the data behind all of it. What you can use that for, maybe for trying to convince somebody to become a volunteer.

David Phu: Yeah. Well, here’s an example that I use personally, is that if we’re going to send in a proposal to do video work for an organization, I’ll often send a walkthrough of what the project is going to look like. So I open up a Google doc, I open up Loom or whatever it is, and I just talk it through. I keep it less than five minutes.

And here’s the thing, out of all the other proposals, and you can think of it from a non-profit point of view of looking for partners and funders and sponsors, that other person opens up your video. And first of all, you’re the only person who attached a face to a proposal. So you already stood out right there. You’re the only person who attached tone and body language to something. So you’ve automatically filled in a bunch of communication gaps that their mind didn’t get from the other proposal applications.

Thirdly, the other things that I’ve been surprised by is when the potential client comes back to me and says, “Hey, we sent it to our team, and they loved it”. And I know they’re all working remotely. So that means I met with my face and my voice, and personally walked them through a proposal in different time zones, on different computers, a chance that I would never have gotten otherwise.

And then the final surprising thing is, when somebody reaches out that I’ve never met and says, “Hey, I’m on the team that reviewed your proposal. It was really cool to see you, nice to meet you”. And then they hook up on LinkedIn or something. And I’m like, “Okay, so just the fact that I’ve recorded myself and walked through a proposal, went out there and met a whole bunch of people” That is something a straight-up PDF never would’ve done.

David Pisarek: A hundred percent, a hundred percent. So in terms of how non-profits, charities, community based organizations, do you have any, I guess, practical ways that they can employ video? Like what we’re talking about?

David Phu: Yep. So like I said, if you’re kind of doing the higher level one on one, looking for funders, looking for partners, go with Loom, go with Soapbox, go with one of those sort of personalized videos. They had it figured out in the 1970s, training videos right now during the pandemic, digital volunteerism is a huge thing. Anything that you’re doing when you’re training one or more volunteers, let’s just say “How to navigate our really complicated Google Drive”, screen record that and send it out for all volunteer onboarding, make it part of an onboarding package. Two benefits are, for this communication, is saving your time, leveraging your efforts and your skills, multiplying your efforts. Yeah.

David Pisarek: So in terms of, you know, videoing yourself, walking through something from the business procedure side, it’s called an SOP, it’s a standard operating procedure. You can take that, you can document it, you can use it on an ongoing basis moving forward, new staff. And then, you know what, if things change, you record it again, you change it up, add in whatever new little piece. If it moved network drives, or if you’re moving to a cloud drive or whatever, it doesn’t really matter. You can leverage this video, not just for necessarily the marketing, but also your internal organization and how you function.

David Phu: Yeah, exactly.

David Pisarek: I think that’s an important piece to talk about.

David Phu: Yeah, now that you mentioned that, a few more things come to mind. If an organization tends to have a backlog of emails or voicemails, they should find out what the most common questions are and answer them in a video. Put ’em in a library online somewhere, YouTube, I don’t know what, or on your web website. And then every time someone emails, instead of going through that whole process of explaining where the shuttle should park to pick up participants for a day program, just link to the video. It’s the simplest, most boring video on earth that is going to be 110% valuable to the person asking. So that’s another example of external sort of routine videos.

David Pisarek: An interesting thought just came to my mind if you wanted to get really funky with that type of thing, is you could build out an automated chatbot and somebody can type in a question or like, how do I find parking? Right? You can have a quick little video that comes up from the chatbot and just kind of automate those type of processes, mimicking the human behavior.

It’s not exactly the same, but I think there’s lots of opportunities to add engagement from video for your organization. I don’t think it necessarily only needs to be about marketing, but in terms of marketing, where do you see video and the role that it plays in marketing

David Phu: The role, I can only speak for sort of the small to medium non-profits, because I know the larger ones have their own massive video systems. In terms of small to medium, where it could take a non-profit in terms of video marketing would be, I think a huge shift can happen in quicker access for, not for the non-profit, but for their audience.

Non-profits are notoriously, when it comes to their websites and their social media, they’re notoriously kind of like bulletin boards. They’re messy, they’re full of jargon or outdated and hard to navigate or wall of text. It’s usually inaccessible if your target audience is seniors or immigrants or newcomers. So where I think my style of video, or actually, I shouldn’t even say my style, where video is going in terms of authenticity and homemade is sort of a quickness of information, a direct access of information.

So I think, you know this, but Google prioritizes video results at the top of search pages. Now, if a newcomer was to type in “Jobs in Toronto immigrant”, you know, just a bunch of keywords like that. The first result, if available, are going to be videos. And actually, if you tried that right now what you’re going to see is a whole bunch of results of immigrant vlogging influencers on YouTube talking about this exact topic.

But let’s say if you were a non-profit, like a Mississauga Newcomer Job Skills Center, that is such a rich local niche grouping of search words. And if an immigrant in Mississauga types something like that in, and your video comes up, that is a better, quicker, clearer option than if you have an outdated website. Because now you have an actual job counselor talking and saying, “Here’s who it’s for, here’s what we do, here’s how to contact us”. You might do it in their language. You might show warmth, welcoming safety to call us. So in short, my answer is that a quicker, clearer, more direct way of getting urgent information.

David Pisarek: And let’s say your website, isn’t kind of, 10, 15 years old that it is newer, the last year or two, it’s well organized. I think it can still take advantage of video and search. And to that point, I think it’s also important to think about the SEO that needs to go into, let’s say you publish it on YouTube. Google is likely going to show YouTube results ahead of any other platform because Alphabet owns YouTube, it’s all part of the same thing. But leverage that description field in the YouTube video, put in the keywords, talk about what the video’s about, link back to your website, link back to if there’s a specific page, like if it’s where are you located, or if it’s about an application form.

David, you know, as per your last example, have a link to the page on your website where they can get it, have a phone number, have an email address, something in there so people can get a hold of it and the information that they’re looking for.

David Phu: Yeah. I think you’re totally right about, even if you have a modern webpage that does not necessarily mean you did an awesome job of the webpage, it does not necessarily mean you’ve hit all the accessibility points that accessibility standards asked for. And it does not necessarily mean that you were very clearly written, even if it is modern. So a video is just more of a, in my opinion, it’s not the be all end all, but it’s a compliment. It’s a, what’s the word like, you know, fill out sort of like the full message.

David Pisarek: Absolutely. And to your point about accessibility, what do people need to think about with regards to like in Ontario, AODA but more broader, just general accessibility access to the videos?

David Phu: Well, provinces and states all have their own rules about accessibility or lack of rules. So I’ll just say if you’re beginning and new about thinking about this, you want to think about people with different sensory disabilities. So if they’re blind, can they hear all the information that they need, that is essential, or if their deaf can they read or see all the information clearly. And so you’re going to have to go through that and, and kind of double check that for yourself or ask an outsider.

The other thing is, it’s so easy now to have subtitles. There’s a number of automatic browser based translation and transcribing services. There’s apps on your phone, where you just pop your video in and it’s going to make the subtitles for you. You just have to correct them and then export your video. That stuff is just so easy now that you’d be kind of, why not do it just to offer even a small proportion of the population, the ability to get complete information.

And the final thing I want to say for accessibility is colorblindness, when in doubt, just go for high contrast, do text, do your filming, do your images, do whatever you’re doing in your video with high contrast. And what I mean by that is, it has to be easy to read. It has to be easy to see put black things against white put, what is it, light pink against dark blue. It’s just have that really dark against really light. So people who are colorblind can see better. And the best way to check this is to just Google, maybe you know the word, it’s like color blind test for images or color contrast ratio checkers. And they’ll tell you within seconds, if your design for your video is colorblind friendly.

David Pisarek: So in podcast episode 32, so wowdigital.com/032. I talk about, you know, the color theory 101. And in that episode, I also talk about color contrast and ratios and things like that. To get AA Compliance, you need to have 4.5:1 color contrast ratio. For triple a compliance, it has to be 7:1. There are tools out there, if you’re looking at your brand or your typical colors that you use, you can put in the values, like you just said, David, if you go into Google and just type color contrast checker, it’ll come up with a ton of them.

But I have a couple links in episode 32. Anybody that’s listening to this when you’re done, because David’s got a lot more insight to deliver here, jump over to there. I’ll have an link in the show notes page for this episode as well for that. And to your point about close captioning and the subtitles, Zoom has a feature they rolled out, I don’t know, maybe middle of 2021 that enables live transcription on video as well, so that you can take that and roll with that as well.

David Phu: Yeah. I think having a resource like yours, David, for the accessibility stuff is brilliant. So listeners go to that stuff. I haven’t looked at it, but I think it’s so important. Go to it. And for those of you who don’t know what 7:1 and 4:1 means, the color checkers, when you go Google them, they just give you a check mark that says good to go. And that’s all you need to know.

David Pisarek: And some of them there’ll actually be a little bit of a slider on it as well. So you can go, okay, I want to make this a little bit brighter or a little bit darker so that you can, you can get the right color values that you need for the accessibility,

David Phu: Very, very intuitive and easy to use.

David Pisarek: Absolutely. So in terms of video, we’ve talked about a couple things that organizations can do and what people can do to just, you know, jump in right away. What would you say is the first step that a non-profit should do if they want to explore getting into video.

David Phu: The first step? Well, it depends, what, how you want to look at it, David, are you asking what’s the first step to a technical step to publishing the video? Or sort of an internal get that sort of that approval or that motivation? Which one?

David Pisarek: Let’s say get the approval and the motivation. So organization X, they’ve never done any video before maybe a few years ago, pre-pandemic. They hired a company to come in and shoot some footage for them, and they had a little promo video or a video about an event, a gala, for example, that maybe they ran, but they’ve never done anything on their own or thought about exploring that.

David Phu: So the first thing I always recommend and it works. It works, it works, it works, is record yourself on your phone or on Zoom. It could be a video or it could be audio only, I don’t care. Just record yourself, talking, pretend somebody in the room asked you, “what does your organization do?” And just answer it. “Well, here at XYZ organization, we’ve been around since 1975, we do this, we do that, we serve this community” and just do it.

And here’s why that’s important, because for most people, they’re going to hate it, they’re going to hate how they sound. They’re going to stumble and stutter. They’re not going to know what to say. They’re going to listen back to it and give up and say, why did I even do this? It’s going to be the most frustrating, horrible experience, but you have to expect that.

Then the second thing is to do it again. You can do it in your car, do it in the bathroom. Just keep going, just keep going, keep going, keep going. Because what we’re trying to do is just flow. Just get comfortable with the record button at all. And this seems to be one of the first breakthroughs when I’m training my recent clients, is that they just needed to forget the camera was there. That was the first biggest hurdle. And after that, everything else seems possible.

And that’s going to separate who does video and who doesn’t do video, or who’s going to hide behind maybe hiring a video company to make it really pretty, or who’s going to be brave enough to just go out there and talk to their audience. And I’m telling you, as soon as you break through that comfort, that discomfort of hitting record and hearing your own horrible voice, everything is possible from there on.

And the final tip is this, if you hate how you sound, your opinion is wrong. People around you love how you sound. They’ve worked with you for decades. There’s just nothing wrong with how you sound, it’s just all in your head. So that’s my first, that’s the first step to feeling, to getting motivated and doing it at all.

David Pisarek: I think there’s a couple key things that you just said there. And I’ve talked about this in podcasts where I’ve been a guest and in other episodes of the Non-Profit Digital Success Podcast as well, where I talk about do something, take that first step. You need to do something, otherwise you’re just doing nothing and you’re not going to further your cause. You’re not going to get any further ahead than where you were. I talk about this in terms of, you know, if you wanted to redesign your site, you can create a committee and then subcommittees and then have meetings upon meetings. No, just take that first step. Get your phone, record yourself.

If you’re watching this right now, pause the episode, open up your recorder and just like record yourself. Obviously come back and listen to the rest of this. But you know, and, and take that first step. And once you feel that you’re smooth, right? Take that video to somebody in your organization, be like, “Hey, what do you think of this?” Maybe it’s your boss, maybe it’s the CEO, or the president, or somebody on the board of directors and see what their take is on it. And, you know, potentially you can get some head on, be like, “Yeah, you know what? Go for this, let’s see how it goes”.

I always say there’s never any harm in trying something. You’re always better off trying to do something and then go, “You know what? We didn’t get any engagement”, but you can’t just count on the one video, right? You need to come out there with one and then you got to be persistent and do another, and another, and another. And you’ll see over time that your traction starts to pick up.

David Phu: Yep. And I think if you are in a non-profit, you’re in a service based place, you probably tend to be in front of people speaking, whether you’re a facilitator or a counselor or doing board presentations or staff weekly meetings. If you tend to be pretty persuasive, if you tend to be able to get people behind you, that’s where your power lies. As soon as you get over the record button, that’s the person that we need to get on camera and then everything’s possible from there.

David Pisarek: And I think that’s really interesting, like get yourself, record it, you know, do something with it. But what are some mistakes that some people might run into in terms of producing this little snippet of video? Maybe it’s a minute-long, let’s say.

David Phu: Classic mistake is trying to perfect a script before ever even hitting record. So people, I see it all the time, will spend days, or hours, or panic right before meeting with me trying to get a script in order. And there’s this weird, I think I’m sure there’s some psychological research about this, but there’s something about a lot of people seem to start there, with writing, and outlining, and scripting when it comes to their speeches or when it comes to their videos or radio appearances. But then they get in front of the camera and then they bring up the script and then they read it and then find out that it’s not them. It sounds nothing like them, suddenly it’s yee old in English with a lot of like company jargon and kind of like reading a scroll.

But my life partner, often when I don’t know what to say, she goes, “Well, what are you trying to say?” I’m like, “I’m trying to say this”. And she says, “Okay, just say that”. So it’s like, yeah, that’s probably the biggest mistake when they get started is over preparation. Instead of just do the damn thing, just see what it feels like, see what it looks like.

David Pisarek: Yeah. I mean, if you want to prep, maybe make a cue card, you know, five or six bullet points, maybe two words each, what you want to talk about and just let it flow. And I think what some people might be scared of, or is like subconsciously affecting them is not understanding that this can be cut. Right. You can mess up what you say three, four times, and then the fifth time you get it right. You can get rid of all those other pieces that were garbage.

David Phu: Yep, yep. That’s right. And another thing about that, though, for me is that there’s a big kind of switch kind of happened in my work with clients and that is, I’d rather invest time with them in practicing to get it right, and to get it natural, then invest time in editing.

Editing’s always possible, of course, but the investment of practicing and getting comfortable just pays off over and over. It starts to pay off in your presentations, in your networking, in your conciseness, in your writing. And then it means a higher likeliness of just filming and publishing instead of spending too much time relying on editing.

David Pisarek: So you just mentioned publishing. And so there’s a perfect segue. We were talking about, you know, the mistakes that some people or a lot of people in what you’re saying, make over prep on the pre-interview and, or the pre-recording, right? What are some of the common mistakes that people should think about when they actually go to publish the video and post it?

David Phu: I think there’s, and I don’t think it’s as anyone’s fault. So yeah, here’s another sort of disclaimer, every time we’re talking about mistakes, I don’t fault anybody like full forgiveness here. It’s not anyone’s fault for not having all the knowledge, but some common mistakes about publishing would be conception or a misguidedness or an ignorance about what publishing is actually supposed to achieve. So I believe, I see that people seem to believe that between filming to posting somehow magically you’re supposed to become popular or somehow magically you’re supposed to-

David Pisarek: Create the ultimate viral video in like one take, right?

David Phu: Yeah. Go viral, as though, there’s a kind of this hope or a reliance that video equals people will see us, which is totally untrue. So I think that’s a common mistake. What you’re supposed to do is, it’s so crowded out there. You have to have the, you mentioned SEO, so make sure your descriptions are rich, full, accurate, and clear. Make sure your tags and your titles are descriptive. Make sure you have good subtitles, apparently that has an effect on searchability, and good thumbnails that tell the viewers exactly what this video is about and what to expect.

You can’t just, an analogy would be, you can’t just walk around the mall and hope people think you’re pretty cool. You got to go out there and tell people, you got to be like, “My name is David, and I’m interested in this and well, what are you interested?” And you got to actually go out there and, and present yourself. And there are tools to do that. So the biggest mistake I would, the first mistake I would say is kind of a false or a mistake in hope that the video is going to do something just by virtue of being a video.

David Pisarek: I think that’s an interesting point. I know, you know, in our pre-show when you and I were talking, I said I wouldn’t talk any politics, but nobody wins an election because of their name. Right. They need to be out there, they need to be talking and meeting people. Same thing in the online world, right?

If you want to have people notice and recognize your organization, there’s an interaction model that needs to be followed, right? Typically, people will not engage with an organization, will not buy a product, will not know a brand, or be willing to connect with a brand until they’ve been touched by you seven to eight times. Right? So they’re likely not going to click through an ad for your organization, unless it’s speaking to something really immediate that that’s talking to them, or if there’s an immediate need, they need to see it over and over and they need to see it in multiple places. And I think video is another, basically like the omnichannel approach that you need to take to your marketing.

David Phu: Yeah. I think you put that well, so that repetition and relevance, and there are tools to do that.

David Pisarek: Yeah. I think this has been really awesome. I hope that when we publish this episode that we tag it properly, I’ll get your insight on that, David, when we do that. And we will, yeah, we’ll get this out there. And you know, this has been really enlightening for me. We’ve been producing some video work for our clients as well, so I’ve got some great little tips that we can take back to them.

And I hope the people listening to this episode. so you, whoever you are, if you’re listening to this, if you’re watching this, that you’ve been able to pick up a couple great little bits here that you can take and start implementing today. When you finish listening to this, if you didn’t pause in the middle, take one minute and describe your organization, grab your phone, just like, turn it towards you and, do a quick, even a 30 second video of yourself, and then do it again tomorrow, and then do it again the day after that, and see how it goes, see how it flows.

You know, working in non-profits, there’s lots of stories at your organization that you can talk about, you know, who you help, why you do what you do. As an employee or volunteer or somebody as a donor, why do they care about your organization? Try to create some of those emotional strings. And I think that’s a really quick way to produce a whole bunch of content. Not necessarily that you would publish at all at the same time, but you can create content that you push out over time.

David, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, what do they need to do?

David Phu: The best thing you can do is go to my website, nonprofitvideocomms.ca, or check me out on LinkedIn, my name is David Phu, spelled P H U. And those are two starting points to just feel me out, read some of my things, and from there you can find free resources to get you started on your own video marketing, and you can also see my training and production services.

David Pisarek: David is publishing, I think, daily on LinkedIn, one kind of like snippet, tidbit, thought of the day, something like that related to video and content marketing, highly recommend you jump on there, connect with him, see what he has to say. He’s got a lot of amazing, wonderful insights and David it’s been so great having you on the show.

We’re going to have on the show notes for this episode. So you just go to, wowdigital.com/043. We’re going to have links to your LinkedIn and your website and all those awesome resources that we’ve been talking about.

So thanks again for being on the episode, and to everybody listening, have a great day and until the next episode, keep on being successful.

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