038 – The value of podcasting for non-profits with Travis Johnson

Episode Transcription

David: Welcome to the Non-Profit Digital Success Podcast, I’m your host David, and today I have Travis Johnson on the show. Allow me to introduce him. Hey, Travis. How’s it going?

Travis: Hey, how you doing? Well, David, thanks for having me on.

David: Awesome. So Travis is a fellow podcast host, he has a show called the Nonprofit Architect Podcast. He’s served on boards of foundations, he’s raised over $500,000, provided seed money for six startup non-profits. This is gonna be an awesome episode. Thanks for joining me here. I hope that the people that are listening to this or are catching this on YouTube are going to really get some good insights from here. So if you’re ready, I’m ready. Good to jump in.

Travis: Oh, I’m ready, David.

David: Awesome. Awesome. So let’s talk about startups and startup non-profits specifically. What should people think about if they’re, you know, contemplating starting up a non-profit for a cause?

Travis: Yeah, that’s a great question, David. I get asked this question a lot and a lot of people get frustrated with my answer. I’m saying these things are gonna sound like I’m being discouraging. I want you to make sure you’re in the best possible starting position if you’re gonna start your new non-profit.

What you really need to do, step one is, you know, first congratulations for having a heart big enough for wanting to help, but take a look at your community and see the area that is affected that you really care about and see who else is doing, what you’re doing. You might find that there’s ways to help them directly, which is a super sweet hack. You get to avoid all the startup paperwork, avoid the fees, avoid, you know, having to put together a board, but really seeing what’s going on in the community.

You might be surprised and find that the thing you’re wanting to do or help out with is already being done in your area or is being done in a nearby town. And you can help spread that goodness to your hometown, which is really wonderful. The step two, once you figured out what it is that you want to do and who else is doing it, you gotta find out if the thing that you wanna do is going to add to services already being provided.

Because if you plan on duplicating something, that’s usually largely just an exercise and you know, self congratulations and patting yourself on the back because you wanna be the one that does it. If you’re wanting to be the one that does it and be the hero, the non-profit world really doesn’t have any space for you, because if you’re wanting to be the hero and jump in and rescue people, then you’re not trying to actually solve the problem. You’re just wanting to be the one that gets the kudos. And that’s usually where people jab me a little bit like, well, “I wanna help” like go ahead, help please by all means help, but you don’t have to start your own non-profit to be one to do it.

I did an interview with Candace Liozu of Foster360 down in Mesa, Arizona and she’s a business woman. She had a huge heart for helping kids aging outta the foster care system, which I’m a huge fan of because I was a kid in the foster care system, so I applied what she’s doing. She looked around the Phoenix, Tempe, Mesa, Arizona area, and realized that there was tons of non-profits helping kids age, out of the foster care system. I was like, “so what’d you decide to do?” She was like, “well I wanted to see what was missing”. And what happened is she found that kids aging out of the foster care system were being passed from organization to organization to organization. Like, they were still in foster care. So she created Foster360 to create a navigator to help that individual navigate all the different systems. Instead of being passed along from organization to organization to organization, they had a person or a mentor with them, guiding them through their process based on what their needs were, which is a fantastic way to jump in and help in that arena.

I’ve had a few people call me and ask me and they’re like, “Oh Travis, I would love to start up a non-profit.” “Great. Who’s doing what you’re doing.” “Well, I have no idea.” “Okay. Is what you’re wanting to do needed in your area.” “Well, I’m not sure.” “So, so you just want to do the thing?” “Like yeah.” “Okay. What are the chances that you’re gonna be successful?” They’re like, “What do you mean?” I was like, well, so say someone’s already doing this. She wanted to provide housing to ladies in the Washington DC area that were running from abuse. Fantastic mission. Fantastic heart. Very wonderful. But she had no idea if someone else was already doing it, there might have been, if she’d done a little research found out that there was actually three other organizations already doing what she was doing and already had millions of dollars coming in. We actually connected her to that organization and she’s on board actually helping something that’s already up and running, which is a much better use of her time.

David: Yeah, you know, there’s something to be said for finding similar like organizations that are doing something that you care about. Especially if you’re thinking of starting something up and connecting with them, potentially they’re running something nationally and maybe just haven’t heard of them because they don’t have effective marketing or branding or anything like that. Right. That very well could be the case.

But something that I talk about on the show quite a bit is that organizations need to run themselves and think of themselves as a business. Right. And doing your due diligence, seeing what competition is out there in the place, right?

Ultimately you’re not trying to sell something, but you’re gonna be selling what you do.

And in order to make it happen, you need money. You need people to buy from you and donate to you to be able to support your cause. And if there’s three other organizations in the local or state or provincial area, that’s doing something similar to what you want to do. What is your USP (Unique Selling Proposition) right? How are you gonna differentiate yourself in the market to get those donor dollars so that you can ultimately do what you want to do?

So I love that idea of taking a look, making sure that you know, what you’re doing is potentially a unique thing. And if there’s really a bigger need for it, right? If you, if you want to start up a shelter because there’s a friend or a colleague or somebody, you know, who’s in need, doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s a much bigger need there, there likely is. But it doesn’t mean that there is. And you know, doing your, the, the due diligence I think is a really critical component to that.

Travis: Oh, absolutely. What, what happens in the non-profit world is we get duplicated services. If you look in the United States at veteran based non-profits, there’s more than 53,000 different organizations. I’m not saying that we don’t need that many organizations, but what are the chances they’re all doing something different, probably pretty low, right? Just because you want to do something does not mean you have to or read this as you should or should not start a new organization. Candace Liozu from Foster 360, she built her organization underneath the umbrella of the United Way, which means she didn’t have to do all the crazy other startup paperwork. She saved herself, loads of headache and this, that, and the other. And there’s a lot to navigate out there.

We actually, I partnered with the Veteran Entrepreneur Alliance, Isaac Belden and he shared with us his documentation and we gathered a whole slew of documents and we created this thing called non-profit in a box and it’s got the 1023 EZ example, all the things you need to do of not only a blank one, but his example, that’s filled out. We’ve got all the different documentation, bylaws, descriptions of all the board members, charter fund, how to do fundraising, a planning cycle, and then a bunch of policies and procedures.

Now, could you go out and find all this stuff available? Of course you can, you can go spend, you know, about a thousand hours, you know, collecting all these things together, or you can pay a lawyer and a legal team to do this for you. And they can bill you for 30 hours. Or you could pick this all up in one easy package and then have your lawyer review it for two hours instead of 30 hours. So that’s something that we have available to, to smooth over the process. If you find that what you wanting to do is really needed in your community.

David: So anybody listening, if they’re interested in that, hang out here until the end of the episode, we’ll talk about how to get a hold of that at the end there. And so it’s really awesome that you’re helping people and talking to them and, and helping them really think through the business side of, you know, the startup piece and working through that. But what got you interested in doing that type of work?

Travis: Well, I have a really crappy life David or I did when as a child, if you read through the bio and the show notes, you’re gonna see that I moved 36 times before graduating high school. That’s on average, more than two a year, because I graduated at 17. That includes 12 different schools, 6 different states, 5 different foster homes, and both my mother and my sister tried to kill me. But through all of that craziness, there was always some person, group, church, or non-profit willing to help keep us sheltered, clothed, and fed. And if it wasn’t for groups like that and individuals willing to help, I don’t know where I would ended up.

So a few years ago I got connected in the Oklahoma city area and ended up serving on a few boards and raising a bunch of money and donating a bunch of my own and volunteering and all that fun stuff and you know, really wanted to help do good things. And then I got stationed over in the Kingdom of Bahrain. It’s a little island in the Persian Gulf and ended up starting this podcast because I couldn’t directly help the way I wanted to, like I did when I was back in the states. Now those are things I could have done there, probably, but I ended up starting a podcast, really with the effect to give the best, how to do things, content to non-profits out there. So I can effectively help the helpers

David: Being able to help on a bit of a bigger scale and reach people that may not be able to connect with you directly, right. Having this archive of insight and information, which is, I didn’t have an upbringing like that. So, you know, like kudos to you, and you know, very happy you’re still here to be able to share your insights and help people out. But in effect, that’s one of the reasons I started this podcast is to help people out and get, you know, be able to help them get more marketing, more branding, more awareness about their organization and help elevate them to showcase the awesome work that that they do and why they do it.

So very similar in terms of being able to get that reach, which leads, I guess, into my next question, which is like, that’s why you started a podcast, why I started a podcast. Do you think there’s any benefit for non-profits having a podcast?

Travis: Endless benefit for non-profits doing a podcast first off, I understand and recognize just how much work there has to be done in a non-profit. That’s one of the reasons I created the show to help the helpers do it better, easier, more effective, more efficiently, but a lot of people in non-profit space, don’t take the time to learn about how to do it.

They’re just into “do mode”, and I’ve been in the US Navy for 21 years, so I can understand being in “do mode”, but even being in the military, the vast, vast majority of our time between 80 and 95%, depending on whatever is going on is spent on training and learning and qualifications and requalifying and making sure that you know how to do the thing. But I have seen time and again in the non-profit space is this “get it done mentality”, which leads to epic burnout and people not lasting more than 15 months on average in whatever position you’ve hired them for. And if you’re in an organization like that, and you’re hearing this what I’m saying right now, realizing that your culture, what you expect and how you train and treat your employees is the reason you’re in the situation that you’re in.

So you really have to take the time to spend, to learn how to do the things, to make sure you’re treating your people right. Get the rest relaxation, refill that cup, to be able to deliver an effective mission. How well are people going to spread your message if they are just completely wore out.

David: It’s important to take the time to rest and recover and recuperate. A lot of non-profits are really struggling in terms of staffing or, I consider volunteers part of staff, but you know, in terms of having the people power to get the work done, I’ve worked in non-profits for 16 years. I get it, I’ve been there, I’ve been in the trenches. It’s important though, to take some time and plan, and strategize, and tackle priority lists and work through those.

And if you don’t have the expertise, try to connect with somebody, try to get some resources, to give you some insight or information to help you through that period of time. And being able to connect and get insights from people in industry like Travis or myself, or other vendor, suppliers, whatever it happens to be is really the right approach. It’ll save you time and headache and really just cut through, cut to the chase and get you to where you wanna be quicker and faster.

Travis: Oh, absolutely. Podcasting as a thing does a lot of things for whomever is doing it, but also, especially for a non-profit, you’ve got someone that’s doing or supposed to be doing your social media and they have to figure out what on earth to post every day, or twice a day, or tweet 10 times a day, or whatever the thing is.

When you host a podcast, and especially if you do an interview show like David’s doing with me right now, David doesn’t have to have a lot of information or insight. He just has to ask questions, and it’s my job as the guest to come up with all the answers. So right now, if David asked me 10 questions only, and I answered 10 questions, you, as the non-profit, someone asking those questions would have a morning and an afternoon piece of content for the entire week, entire work week.

You don’t have to figure out what you’re gonna post because you already have the answer. So that’s one, two, every time you do an interview, your knowledge, your personal knowledge base increases your authority. Your likability goes up with each and every show that you publish with each and every person that you interact with every interview that you do, you share your audience with a guest and the guest shares their audience with you. Like when this goes live, I’m gonna publish it on all my stuff and they’re gonna be like, “Wow, Dave is such a great interviewer. I’m gonna check out his show.” Right.

David: So true. I really am.

Travis: Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. But then what changes is dynamic instead of you having to search so hard to find volunteers, and staff, and donors, and partners, they’re gonna start finding you and eventually your phone will be ringing with people searching you out because they’ve been looking for exactly what it is that you’ve been doing.

But let’s be honest, the vast majority of non-profits do almost no marketing for whatever reason they get stuck or they have people on their board that don’t understand the power and the value of marketing and they don’t do it. So no one ends up knowing who they are, what they do, what they stand for or why they’re different than anyone else. So why would anyone ever volunteer, give money, or work at your organization? They don’t know who you are and why you do what you do.

Another great thing about podcasting is that it allows you, your platform, to interview people that are elected in your area. This could be city council members, president of the school board, the mayor, elected officials, the governor, because they’re gonna want to come on your show and talk about their stuff. And then also if you get to ask them what they’re doing about the thing that you care about, if you are an organization that is fighting against veteran homelessness, you get to ask that elected official directly what they’re doing about veteran homelessness.

And then when it goes to committee and they want to figure out what’s going on, who are they gonna know that they talk to that’s the expert in that area? Well, it’s gonna be you. So you’re gonna get brought in to talk about as an expert witness, when they’re deliberating about how to handle, in this case, veteran homelessness and what to do about it. You’re gonna be brought on as an expert. Now you’re in the decision making process. You’re in legislative advocacy and yeah, there’s some rules attached to this stuff, right?

Check out my interview with Bethany Snyder and how to engage in legislative advocacy. She walks you through the things you need to tiptoe around, but anything else, you know, you’re not endorsing in Canada. You’re talking about the thing that you’re trying to solve and not be the hero and save the person, but solve the problem as a whole work yourself out of business is the goal, right?

David: Yeah, you know, just going back to what, what you first said there, I think there’s really three factors in terms of why non-profits should start a podcast. It’s the no like and trust, right? Why is somebody going to donate to your cause? Why does anybody care about what you do or why you’re trying to do it?

Getting out there, having content out there, being marketable so that your audience, the people that provide funding to you, grants, whatever, whatever it happens to be, if they know, like, and trust you, they’re gonna follow you. They’re gonna care about your mission, they’re gonna help you out wherever and however they can, they’re gonna tell their friends, maybe their family about you and the great work that you’re doing.

Travis: Oh yeah, it’s fantastic. And imagine having a meeting with someone and you can say, you know, if you wanna learn more about what we’re talking about, check out, let me see your phone. Here’s the podcast that we host, here’s where we’re talking about exactly the thing that we care about. So instead of them leaving the office or leaving the meeting and just being under the next thing on their checklist, they’re now listening to you, reaffirm and confirm, telling them all the things you just talked about in long form, as they’re driving to their next place. You can’t do that. If you don’t have a podcast.

Dave, I want to ask you a question. I know you’re the, the host, right? But I want to ask a question anyway. What is the difference between a site on the internet, right? A website that you go to once and a website you go to over and over and over again.

David: Ultimately fresh content, right?

Travis: Content! Yeah, look at that

David: I talk about it on the show all the time. It’s all about the content. Like you said, taking an episode, it doesn’t have to be long. It could be eight minutes, it could be 10 minutes, it could be an hour, right? Taking it, splitting it to chunks, creating little videos, taking excerpts from it, making little graphics. You don’t necessarily have to do it yourself. There’s platforms, you can use Canva, you can use, there’s a ton of them out there.

You can hire somebody really inexpensively to produce that for you. You can get a volunteer who’s really, you know, into tech or whatnot. And they can create all those graphics for you. And then you can have a library of them and you don’t necessarily need it five, six times a day. You could do one every two days, one every three or four days. Ideally the more frequent you post the better it works in terms of search engine optimization and getting more traffic to your site. But if you’re light on content and you’re doing a podcast or even, you know, a mid/long form blog type of entry over the course, let’s say a month, you can take that. And you could have content for eight to 10 weeks without any real hesitation or issue with that.

Travis: Yeah, absolutely. It’s new content, right? So you look at something like news, social media, sports outlets, they’re posting new content every day. If you go to Yahoo right now and you just scroll through the page, do you think they are creating that content? They’re not, they’re using an RSS feed. They’re using someone else’s that created content and they’re auto linking it to their page, to create content for people to search through. And that’s why the value of Yahoo is, is where it is.

When you look at most non-profit pages, it is just a digital pamphlet. You know, “This is who we are, this is what we do, this is our origin story, give us money”. Who wants to go back to that website? Nobody. There’s no reason to go back. There’s no value to the average person to go back. But if you are well, we already mentioned veteran homelessness, right?

If you’re publishing articles or YouTube videos or podcasts, which we all know which one I prefer, then people have a reason to go back and learn about the thing that you’re fighting against. If you interview someone else in the industry, that’s dealing with veteran homelessness, like community solutions and Built For Zero or Project Steel, who is, you know, giving household goods and toiletries and stuff to people that are in shelters.

If you are interviewing these people and seeing what they’re doing, then not only do you help spread all of the information that you would have and then learn about you make your organization stronger, because you’re learning about these other things. You’re learning about who else to partner with. And you’re like, “Oh my gosh, where are we gonna be able? Yeah, we got a house, but how are we gonna get, fill it all full of stuff?” Well, I mean, three weeks ago we interviewed Kiana at Project Steel and now we have someone that’s already dedicated to getting those things for you. And now she has a place to put them because you’ve created that partnership and that connection. And people aren’t gonna give largely outside of their own region, unless it’s some big national push, right?

So you’re gonna want to find if someone, you know, finds your stuff and isn’t gonna donate to you, no matter what you do, you’re gonna provide them the value by creating the contact of someone in their area that they can donate to. Or you’re gonna build this network of people, which what it really takes to actually eradicate a problem because not a single organization has ever eradicated anything. It’s always been a cohort, a coalition, a group of organizations that have got some of this stuff done like community solutions and Built For Zero.

You can check out an interview I did with someone on my website, what is that girl’s name? I can picture her. I can see her face. I’ll look it up in the background here while we’re chatting. You know, they go into cities and they’ve got 18 communities in the US right now that are down to functional zero, which means there’s more housing available than veterans on the streets.

Now you can’t force someone into housing, “take this house!”. You know, like you can’t force anybody to do that. Tamara Wright is that interview. You can’t force them to do it, but it takes the mayor’s office and a bank and three or four organizations in town to really plug into the community to change those numbers into names and be like, “Yo, has anyone seen Tony this week?” “Oh yeah. I saw Tony this week.” “Yeah, he looks pretty healthy. He’s doing good”. Cool. That’s awesome.

When you turn people from numbers into names and you work with other organizations, you can actually make it happen. You can get the mayor to talk to the lending company about waving rent or mortgage for three months to keep someone in their house and prevent them from becoming homeless. But none of this stuff happens if we work in a silo by ourselves, not coordinating with other people or learning how to do these things. And the way you do that is by having conversations with other people, other organizations. And if you record it and do an interview, now you’ve created content for your website and given people a reason to come back and get updated news on what the heck is going on in the thing that they care about.

David: Right, and part of this is taking a look at KPIs and metrics. So key performance indicators, right? And it’s really hard to measure KPIs for brand awareness. It really is. And, but with podcasts, you can get stats about, you know, how many listens, where they are, that type of thing. You can get your message spread further. As Travis mentioned earlier, like when this episode goes live, you’re listening to it now, so it’s live. Travis is gonna push it out to his network. I’m gonna push it out to the Wow Digital network and my personal network and our employees are gonna share. And all of that as well. And we’re gonna get more eyes and ears on this. It’s gonna help Travis out, down the road. Hopefully, people are gonna get in touch with him to get more insights or subscribe to his podcast as well.

And you know, it’s really about getting out there and marketing yourselves. And this is a fairly easy way to do it in terms of budget. You don’t have to go all out and have a full recording studio for running a podcast. We record our interviews so that we can share them on YouTube, but you don’t need to do that. Right? You can just go straight audio with it. And a microphone, a decent microphone costs you, I don’t know, maybe $40 you can pick one up and you can start recording. And over time, maybe you invest a little bit more. You got maybe a little bit better quality or whatnot, but really you don’t need to.

Travis: Oh, absolutely. There there’s so many ways to get started for free or for cheap there, you have to get a podcast host and there’s stuff like:

• Anchor,

• Buzzsprout,

• PodBean,

• Spreaker,

• RedCircle,

• Podcasts.com.

There’s a whole host of them that are free to start that have apps. If you’re a fan of marketing at all, and you’re obviously listening to David’s show about marketing, there’s a guy out there called Russell Brunson, who is the co-founder of ClickFunnels, which if you’ve seen any sales landing page, pretty much all of them are some type of funnel that’s now built, but he started a podcast calling Marketing Secrets or something, and he downloaded Anchor, recorded speaking into his phone on the way to work. It was like 10 minutes. He got there, he hit publish. Didn’t do any editing, didn’t have a fancy microphone. And this podcast has millions of downloads.

It’s about the content, it’s about having quality conversations or providing value. It’s not about the fancy microphone you have. If you’re watching the video, you can see that I’m saying a fancy microphone doesn’t matter as you see me speaking into a fancy microphone, but for the first year and a half of my podcast, I didn’t have any equipment. The camera is new, the arm is new. You know, I earned money through my podcast, and then I decided, you know what, I’m really gonna stick with this thing. And then I upgraded my equipment, but there’s so many benefits to it.

It’s a wonder that we just recently passed the 2 million podcast. I think April last year we passed 2 million published episodes or excuse me, published shows. But even at that time, there was only about 140,000 active podcasts really going on. There’s people that get 10 episodes in and quit, “oh, I’m not a millionaire yet”. That’s not really the goal. The goal is to have these important, valuable conversations to meet people, to grow as human beings and really connect. And when we can do that, everything else becomes easy

David: In the non-profit world. It’s really easy to connect with people. Everybody wants to help, right? It’s one of the beautiful things about working with non-profits or in non-profits is some people will just bend over backwards to give you a hint. And if you wanted to interview somebody, if you wanted to have a chat with them and connect with them, you’re gonna make friends and you’re gonna make acquaintances and you’re going to further your goals and their goals. And it’s essentially a win-win.

Travis: Yeah, it’s a win all the way around. When you connect and you do something like podcasting. That’s really, I mean, we’re still in the leading edge of this stuff, right? We really haven’t hit full market saturation. Not everyone understands what a podcast is, where to find them or how to download. And somebody, you might be like “Root, really? Like I’ve been doing this for years”. A lot of people are still not yet set on what podcasting is. It’s- Netflix took, you know, away from the movie industry and Blockbuster and television, and now streaming services are crushing cable. Blogs took and shwacked newspapers. And now podcasts are really having a huge effect on the radio and public broadcast industry. Don’t miss out on this trend because you’re scared to do it.

With that, I know we’re gonna talk about it a little bit later, but like I’ve got a free giveaway for y’all it’s 15 reasons I think everyone needs their own podcast. If you go to the website, nonprofitarchitect.org, click on the resources tab at the bottom, there’s a free download. It’s like a dollar if you mess it up, but there’s a code listed on there. Put the code in, save your dollar and get all the reasons you should do this.

There’s so many reasons and so many decisions to make. And it’s so scary for a lot of people, just start and call it whatever your name is podcast or whatever your organization is podcast. That’s all. That’s all that has to be. Download it, start it free. You can always change the name later. You can always change the graphics later. You can always change hosts later. You can always get upgraded equipment later. You don’t have to have it to start, but you gotta start if you want to be great.

David: That’s exactly it. You’ve gotta take one step and then the next and the next and the next with podcasting, as well as any kind of content production. It’s important to think about the cadence and the frequency and the scheduling of it. You know, listeners want to know every Thursday or, you know, the first Monday of the month or whatever it’s gonna be. This is when the new episode’s gonna be. So schedule it in, plan it out and know this is the cadence that we’re gonna be publishing.

There’s free platforms out there. Like Travis said, the one that we’re using for Non-Profit Digital Success Podcast, we’re using Anchor for that. You can always go in later. You can update a little snippet of the audio. If you wanted, you can swap out the graphics for it. Don’t worry about any of that. You don’t need a logo for your podcast, take your organization’s logo and then boom, done, there it is and then put podcast with it. Or, you know, you don’t need to trademark a name for your podcast.

Travis: Yeah, you can do those things, but it’s not required to get started. You just need to have a way to record. If you’ve got a smartphone and you can download an app, you have all the equipment you need to get started. If you already have an organization, you just get permission to start a free podcast, right? Cause non-profits make every difficult, increasingly difficult, right? Every single decision’s gonna be difficult.

Oh, and again, if you’re thinking about starting a non-profit know that you don’t own it, it is a non-profit business, as opposed to a for-profit business. If you start a non-profit, you don’t own the thing. So if you’re a control freak, and you have to be like, have your hands in everything, don’t start a non-profit because the board makes all the decisions and they have one employee, the executive director, depending on how it’s structured. “Well, I’ll just structure it. So, you know, the board can never fire me”. If that’s the way you want to do it, then you have no business starting a non-profit. Again, not meant to discourage you, but just food for thought.

David: Awesome. So this has been an awesome episode. I hope the people listening have gotten some really great insights. I know that I have. We’ve spoken before, this has been an awesome kind of touch with you here. And you know, I’m planning on taking some of these tidbits. I’ve got your ebook myself. I’ve read through it. It’s really great. I think the people listening to this take advantage of this code offer that Travis is providing. It’s gonna be in the show notes. Travis, if anybody’s interested in connecting with you, what should they do?

Travis: I’m @NonprofitArchitect on every social media. And if you search Nonprofit Architect Podcast, you’re gonna find all of the likes on the first four and a half pages of Google. I don’t know how the heck that happened. Oh, wait, I do, it’s because I created content, created new content is how I’m the first four and a half pages of Google. But finally, Facebook is probably the easiest. If you search Nonprofit Architect and hit people, my smiling face pops up.

David: Now, wonderful smiling face that is so, you know, thanks again for joining in Travis, it’s been great having you on the Non-Profit Digital Success Podcast.

To everyone listening, if you want any of the links or resources that Travis mentioned, his contact info, link to his Linktree, link to his Facebook, all of that stuff. We’re gonna have it on our show notes page, just head over to Wowdigital.com/podcast, and then click on this episode for all the details. Until the next time, keep staying successful.